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New Ghostcrawler Blog: Raid Progress

geposted 2011.03.18 um 11:36 von Ashelia

We addressed our views on dungeon difficulty several weeks ago, and in the interim many players have asked for us to comment on raid difficulty.

I chose to use the word "progress" in the title for this blog quite intentionally. We think progression is the key to players having fun. When groups stop making progress, the members get frustrated. When individuals feel like they are stuck, that’s when they start to lose interest. I don’t think it strictly has to do with the flow of loot being shut off. A big part of it is the sense that as you climb up that mountain, you are getting closer and closer to the summit instead of just sliding back down to base camp at the end of each day.

Let’s consider two extremes. If you complete the raid content very quickly and have Sinestra on farm and everyone has acquired their best in slot items, then you’re probably ready to take a break from raiding. If you worked really hard to get to that point, as many of the current “finished” guilds did, then you’re probably pretty happy about resting until Firelands becomes available. However, if that break point happens too soon, too easily, for too many guilds, then the raiding game can feel empty. Players run out of content before they are ready to run out of content, if that makes sense. Now let’s consider the other extreme, where a guild just has no realistic chance of ever beating a boss. This can be particularly demoralizing if it’s the first boss, but it can happen at any time. That guild might not feel like they are making progress. Many guilds are willing to put in a few weeks trying to master a new encounter, but if it gets to the point where they are wiping for months, there’s a good chance they’ll start to see burnout and thinning ranks. The sweet spot in raid balance for us to hit is that everyone feels like they can still make progress. Content that is too hard or too easy doesn’t meet that goal.

Raid encounters, to some extent, nerf themselves. This is because every week, the raid members acquire more and more gear. Secondarily, the community acquires more and more knowledge and experience, which translates into better videos, strategy guides, or even UI mods, as well as just more players who have experienced the encounters firsthand. Each week that you are able to kill any bosses, your group’s gear improves overall, through Valor points if nothing else. When Firelands is available, everyone’s gear will quickly take a step up in quality. This will give you an even better chance to beat those bosses that are blocking you now. We wouldn’t be surprised to see some guilds try the first few Firelands bosses one night, while using the next night to go back to get the head and chests from Nef and Cho’gall in order to complete their set bonuses, that is until acquiring new set bonuses becomes feasible. On some bosses, though, better armor and weapons may not be enough because some mechanics just can’t easily be outgeared. To mitigate that problem, our tendency is to nerf content over time just to make sure a wide variety of players see it. The trailblazers get to see the fights before anyone else, but we don’t lock the dungeon door behind them.

Having said all of that, there are some encounters that still need adjustment. Heroic 10-player modes can often be the hardest to balance, because those groups just don’t have access to the sheer number of tools in one group that the larger raids have. You’ve probably seen some hotfixes go out recently and we might make more adjustments in 4.1. We’ll continue to monitor progress and make adjustments when we feel the time is right.

Overall, we are pretty happy with our current raid balance. Most guilds that are trying seem to be making some progress. On some realms, we’re seeing pickup groups for at least the earlier bosses, which seems appropriate for where we are in the content cycle. The Heroic versions are particularly challenging, though even in that case, there is a gradient with easier and very difficult bosses. For those of you who feel like you are stuck on progression, we’d like to hear more about why. Are you trying to PUG the encounters? Do you have a very casual guild with a lot of different players each night? Is the problem that you’re undergeared or that the mechanics are too unforgiving? What are the mechanics that are really hard for raid leadership to explain or even understand? Are your tanks exploding, or are your healers running out of mana, or are you failing the berserk timers? We have data on all of this, but it’s useful to hear it from your point of view as well. Remember, our goal is that you beat the fight because you understood the mechanics and executed your tanking, DPS, and healing around those constraints. If you’re just kind of powering through a boss ability or phase that you don’t really understand, then it’s going to be a lot harder for you. As always, feedback on which encounters you are enjoying and which ones you never want to see again is also appreciated, though we’ve gotten a lot of that already, and are designing your Firelands foes with that in mind.

P.S. I am as excited about the Firelands encounters as I am about the current ones. We can’t wait for you to wipe to them, er... see them.

Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer of World of Warcraft. He wipes to the elevator boss.

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Kommentar von Bendito "P.S. I am as excited about the Firelands encounters as I am about the current ones. We can’t wait for you to wipe to them, er... see them."

hahahahaha WIN Kommentar von Contay I'd go to check the official site's blog post entry to see if people are still complaining about his dungeon difficulty blog post but that'd be like going to check to see if the sun actually rose this morning.

Might do it later, though, for lulz.

At least they've fully learned from the Naxxramas mistake, though. Kommentar von Anmity This, I like. Kommentar von Ashelia I'd go to check the official site's blog post entry to see if people are still complaining about his dungeon difficulty blog post but that'd be like going to check to see if the sun actually rose this morning.

Might do it later, though, for lulz.

At least they've fully learned from the Naxxramas mistake, though.Kommentar von jynthea i think for my guild we dont have enuf ppl all thee time or the same ppl at that plus alot of us need better gear, i kind of wish we could buy some of the better gear that u get with vp with actual gold, its definitely frustrating when u wipe over and over again, i see that happen in my guild alot and we go back a few times and try and get thru it, most times we end up getting it right which is awesome but too we have players that i just want to bonk on the head cuz they r not paying attn grrrr, communication is such a huge thing in raids which for me is where vent comes in, everyone needs to have vent to make it go smoother and everyone needs to know their job and dont go all leroy and aggro crap getting everyone killed, that about sums it up for me lol Kommentar von Sinespe I always get two paragraphs into Ghostcrawler's posts, find nothing disagreeable in them, then skip to the end to see the amusing tagline he has come up with. Kommentar von draph24 Umm... Cho'gall drops shoulders... just sayin.... Kommentar von lankybrit Our guild is having a tough time with anything beyond Magmaw and Halfus. I think we'll get there in time though, in just the manner explained. We'll know the fights much better (after trying them), do better research (because we know we're going to face them) and get better gear (through Valor or the drops off Magmaw and Halfus.

Cheers. Kommentar von Sephiroth ... snip ....Kommentar von klor I'd go to check the official site's blog post entry to see if people are still complaining about his dungeon difficulty blog post but that'd be like going to check to see if the sun actually rose this morning.

Might do it later, though, for lulz.

At least they've fully learned from the Naxxramas mistake, though.Kommentar von Alybeth Our current biggest problem is mana concerns. We raid 2 nights a week, 25 man. Currently working on Nef/Al'akir.

We were running with 2 shaman/priests/pallys for a total of six healers. We decided to try to make the fights shorter with 5 heals, which is doable and add in a resto druid who's normally boomkin when we need those swing heals. The loss of the second mana tide has made things much more challenging for our healers. Our priests try to hymn but on many encounters there is very little time to stop casting to do this; same with the potion of concentration. Mana potions are pretty worthless right now, giving back such a minimal amount of mana. And it isn't even worth asking your feral tank/cat to shift out to innervate you as you get like 2k mana back. :(

We DE almost every item this week in BOT and BWD, including all the Cho'gall loot. :( Kommentar von Ashelia I believe this person was referring to the original Naxx that only a small percentage of raiders ever saw. That is the mistake they are trying to avoid ever making again.Kommentar von jumbodog I always get two paragraphs into Ghostcrawler's posts, find nothing disagreeable in them, then skip to the end to see the amusing tagline he has come up with.Kommentar von Rainemard Some of you sound like you're actually replying to Ghostcrawler. You guys do realize this is just a copied blog post from the Official Site, right? None of the higher-ups in Blizzard actually peruse Wowhead for our thoughts/opinions, that would just be silly!

...or would it? Kommentar von Interest "True as a boiling bog full of toasted toads."I always get two paragraphs into Ghostcrawler's posts, find nothing disagreeable in them, then skip to the end to see the amusing tagline he has come up with.Kommentar von Flonnette It feels to me like the 10 version of these raids are a bit neglected. The tolerances in these raids are so much tighter that either having a player die or slip up a maneuver means a wipe instead of trying to adjust. Especially as an experienced raider from all the way back in the original game, I am surprised by the mechanics found in some of these events that would have expected to see in Heroic instead of Normal or the timing is so brutal and tight that it makes it frustrating to practice to overcome. Kommentar von Contay I'd go to check the official site's blog post entry to see if people are still complaining about his dungeon difficulty blog post but that'd be like going to check to see if the sun actually rose this morning.

Might do it later, though, for lulz.

At least they've fully learned from the Naxxramas mistake, though.Kommentar von Interest I'd go to check the official site's blog post entry to see if people are still complaining about his dungeon difficulty blog post but that'd be like going to check to see if the sun actually rose this morning.

Might do it later, though, for lulz.

At least they've fully learned from the Naxxramas mistake, though.Kommentar von Sas148 "P.S. I am as excited about the Firelands encounters as I am about the current ones. We can’t wait for you to wipe to them, er... see them."

hahahahaha WINKommentar von Stromwerk I'd go to check the official site's blog post entry to see if people are still complaining about his dungeon difficulty blog post but that'd be like going to check to see if the sun actually rose this morning.

Might do it later, though, for lulz.

At least they've fully learned from the Naxxramas mistake, though.

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