Kommentare

Kommentar von Tyrsenus

King Varian Wrynn is the king of Stormwind. He was kidnapped by the Defias and has since made his return to the throne.

Kommentar von azahel

too bad his wife got killed on the conflict...
the fountain was bugged at that time

Kommentar von blackcrusader

exactly how did this get all the way to Dalaran? Varian would never leave Stormwind during a political crisis in his right state of mind

Kommentar von 195057

"I wouldn't want anyone to be hurt."

"Just some orcs."

Kommentar von whitedragon254

This was likely before he became a gladiator as now he wants to beat the living crap out of alot of people..

Kommentar von junkseer

Well now that he is back, I'd say his coin got 50% curse.......

Kommentar von Surokh

When the orcs attacked the kingdom of Azeroth(or SW as you may call it) many have fled including young King Warian Wrynn who recently became king after his father death. He fled to the capital city of Lordareon (now under its ruins lies undercity) and Dalaran is very near so he could pay a visit.

Kommentar von 195114

arthas will win besides from the fact he has an endless resupplying undead army u cant win while separated

apart we are rendered useless but together we are strong (my own)

Kommentar von Merlion

Some how I doubt that.

Kommentar von taurenmoo812

haha, Wrynn (who was king even then) could only afford silver coins, well Thrall used a gold coin http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43627

Kommentar von TriniKrusader

First off, the Western Horde doesn't even trust the Eastern Horde. Hence the fact that their reputations are 'split.' Blood elves and Forsaken start off neutral with trolls, orcs and tauren and vice versa for a reason.

We can't assume that every single member of the Horde is complicit in the goings on in the Forsaken ranks. So "the whole Horde thought it was fine and dandy" isn't very accurate. Adventurers are special people with access to all kinds of information and secrets that the average citizen of either faction will never learn. The game is made to entertain players, hence we learn all sorts of lore items that 'ordinary people' in Azeroth don't. The average orc peon doesn't run over to the Apothecary Wing every few days. THRALL knew, definitely, but he allowed Sylvanas to run her kingdom as she saw fit. "Warchief" doesn't mean "ideological dictator".

Sylvanas never trusted Varimatras. She had him under her eye for a reason, and she thought she could use him for her purposes. She was wrong. It was pretty clear to everyone that this was an alliance of convenience, just as the Forsaken's pact with the Horde was at first. Difference between her and Varimatras is that she stood by Thrall when she could've used the plague the way the Apothecaries wanted and destroyed both enemies and 'allies', the way many people expected her to. And guess what - she didn't. She proved herself to be better than most of the fans - myself included - thought her to be.

There isn't really an 'innocent' side. Both Horde and Alliance allow the prevalence of warlocks despite the fact that it was the Legion that caused most of the problems of the universe - would you call that hypocrisy as well? As for the humans, the decadence of Stormwind has led to moral ugliness. The Defias fiasco that cost so many lives and destabilised the entire region would have been prevented if the Van Cleef and his engineers were paid. For rebuilding Stormwind. I mean, how can you cheat the people who rebuilt the most important city in the Alliance and did such a fantastic job?

The whole "Horde/Alliance is evil" thing isn't just wrong, it's outdated. This debate has been gone over again and again since WoW came out and Blizzard has done a hell of a job to prove that although the Horde is morally grey, the Alliance isn't exactly a beacon of light either.

Kommentar von zapiks44

Thrall gets a Gold Coin, while Varian only gets a silver coin.

Up YOURS, Varian!

Kommentar von Pwnzoar

'Summary' judgements? The Forsaken were experimenting on live humans for years, and the whole Horde clearly thought it was just fine and dandy. And we're supposed to stand together with them? Are you insane? Jaina might need to have her eyes checked, she ought to have taken one look at the Apothecary Wing and pyroblasted Thrall the minute he showed his hypocritical face.

Besides, even if the could be trusted, there remains the fact they're so stupid, so mind-bogglingly retarded, they actually trusted a freaking Dreadlord, the lifetime achievement award winners for backstabbing. Stand together, indeed. Better to stand alone than to stand with an 'ally' you constantly have to keep watching your back for.

Completely forgetting of course how the humans enslaved the orcs for several years after the Second War, forcing them to do grueling manual labor with harsh treatment.

Kommentar von JonTargaryen

Completely forgetting of course how the humans enslaved the orcs for several years after the Second War, forcing them to do grueling manual labor with harsh treatment

Completely forgetting of course that those orcs were not slaves, were kept in internment camps, were not made to do grueling manual labor as their lethargy made it difficult for them to feed themselves, and were only in those camps because Varian voted not to kill them.

Did you forget that those were the same orcs who ravaged Stormwind and massacred thousands of people?

Are you saying they should have been killed instead?

Kommentar von TriniKrusader

...were only in those camps because Varian voted not to kill them...

I don't want to sound like a troublemaker but I think that's a presumption. Do we really know what his vote was? Does the lore even say there was a vote? I mean, King Terenas was the leader of the Alliance anyway and Varian was still a young leader back when the camps were formed.

If you want to use this point to argue that humans can be great and noble, that's fine. But Lordaeron of the Old Alliance and Stormwind of the new one are two different, different kingdoms.

EDIT: Point conceded. I knew I shouldn't have stopped at Rise of the Horde >.>

Kommentar von 320146

I still can't belive the King of Stormwind couldn't afford a goldcoin

Kommentar von Nigol

haha suckers thrall got a gold coin!

FOR THE HORDE!

Kommentar von blackcrusader

"I wish the uprising back at home would settle itself soon. I wouldn't want anyone to be hurt."

Varian Wrynn proceeds by taking a claymoore, going to the nearest internment camp, and chopping off Orc heads compeditively with Grenn Graymane

Kommentar von 665740

Yeah but you're forgetting one thing. The "humans" that the Forsaken primarily test their plagues on are Scarlet Crusaders...not widely known for their warm and fuzzy side. Even towards other members of the alliance.

Kommentar von 664031

He can afford gold coins. But these coins are labeled by the importance of the former owner, and Varian, well... not that important.

Unfortunately, the Alliance lacks good leader names, even though some of the "neutral" leaders, like Rhonin, should be Alliance aligned.

Kommentar von 175315

Did you forget that those were the same orcs who ravaged Stormwind and massacred thousands of people?

Depending on how you look on it. They were the "same" orcs, but they were COMPLTELLY different organisation. Ors who ivanded Azeroth were under command of Blackhand, who was uder command of legion and fought in first war only against humans (alliance was not founded yet).

In the second war, orcs were lead by Orgrim Doomhammer, who was against legion all the times, and all he wanted was to stop that madness. But humans, gnomes and dwarves formed the alliance to fight them off... without provocation, they just didn´t realise that leadership changed... alliance was full of prejudices and hatred since it was formed! And their hunger for blood didn´t stop. They were fighting orcs who just wanted to free their brothers and find the peace, and eventually killed Orgrim - the orc who is responsible for that the legion didn´t destroy their kingdom completelly.

And then, there was Thrall, a leader who moved orcs far away from human kingdoms... there is no reason to fight them anymore.... but they do!

And NOW say that Varian is a noble person -_-

TriniKrusader: great reply, I gave yo + even thought you are critising me (this is first time I did it). I was probably really confusing 2. and 3. war, maybe because I didnt play WC2/3 and all I know is from sites like wowwiki....
But still, I don´t agree with some your points, i mean ... yes, Orgrim left Gul´dan alive, but he did only because he needed him, he accapted him as an "important evil" (like Thrall accepts all horde warlocks)... And yes, Night elves atually have reason to fight orcs, but draenei, humans, dwarves and gnomes don´t. And for killing cenarius - if im not mistaken, he still "lives" in emerald dream... And he was killed by Grom, who was under (un-direct, i think...) control of demons, so demons are responsible for killing him, not horde

Kommentar von TriniKrusader

My goodness. This is... epic. I actually left my semi-retirement to reply to this comment.

True. For clarification, the "humans" fought against comprised the southern kingdom of Azeroth, retconned as the "Kingdom of Stormwind" when Blizzard decided to make Azeroth the name of the whole world.

In the second war, orcs were lead by Orgrim Doomhammer, who was against legion all the times, and all he wanted was to stop that madness.

False. The reason Warcraft 2 is called "Tides of Darkness" is because the orcs launch a huge ship invasion of the northern kingdom of Lordaeron. Doomhammer did want to free his people of the Legion's control, but he had no intention to stop fighting the humans. Doomhammer did kill Gul'dan's warlocks; it's also true, however, that he allowed Gul'dan to continue necromancy. This is the time when the Horde imprisoned Alexstrasza, enslaved her children, empowered the ogre clans with demon magic, created the death knights and most importantly were still under the Legion's control.

But humans, gnomes and dwarves formed the alliance to fight them off... without provocation

This is plain baffling. Are you telling me the humans needed provocation to "fight them off"? As in, they needed an excuse to defend their own lands from invasion? What, did the orcs BUY the land from them? On a side note, this was the Old Alliance, a different (and in some ways better) organisation than the New Alliance.

they just didn´t realise that leadership changed...

Does that even matter? If the orcs had come forward and offered the humans peace, it might have. But the humans were repelling an invasion of their own land, not instigating hostilities against a peaceful group.

alliance was full of prejudices and hatred since it was formed!

If I recall correctly - and I'm pretty sure I do - the humans of the north had no idea that orcs ever existed before the invasion. The only "prejudice" that existed up there was the elves' racial hatred for the trolls, and the trolls were the ones who started that. So no, rallying troops to defend your land doesn't really count as "hatred".

And their hunger for blood didn´t stop. They were fighting orcs who just wanted to free their brothers and find the peace

I think I understand what's happening here. You're confusing Warcraft 2 and Warcraft 3 lore. In Warcraft 2, the orcish Horde was a violent, demon-ridden, bloodlusted war machine that wanted to see all of human civilisation razed to ashes. In Warcraft 3, the orcs were a shamanistic nation that wanted to redeem themselves for past mistakes and find a place on Azeroth where they could live in peace.

NOT THE SAME.

and eventually killed Orgrim - the orc who is responsible for that the legion didn´t destroy their kingdom completelly.

Orgrim Doomhammer was killed by a human - but it was at the invasion of an internment camp. He was killed by one of the minions of the corrupt Lord Blackmoore, not by an ordinary Alliance soldier during the Second War. It's detailed in Lord of the Clans, an excellent novel. This is long after he gave up trying to destroy humanity.

And then, there was Thrall, a leader who moved orcs far away from human kingdoms... there is no reason to fight them anymore.... but they do!

Indeed. This is pretty much the second thing you've said that makes sense, but saying 'no reason' is an oversimplification. There's years of mutual hatred going on there. The orcs' new settlement is right on the border of the Night Elves' ancestral lands, and one of the first things the orcs did when going there - though, granted, without Thrall's permission - was cut down a large chunk of Ashenvale and kill Cenarius, the Night Elves' demigod. (Note that was Cenarius' own damn fault).

And NOW say that Varian is a noble person -_-

Varian is intrinsically flawed, greatly burdened, highly arrogant, deeply sorrowful - and on some level, noble. I hate the guy but I'm not going to lie about him for that reason. He hates the Horde because he was enslaved, made into a gladiator and forced to fight for his life while he had amnesia - during the New Horde era, no less. Add that to being permanently POed because of his wife's death to the Defias, and he's as much a tragic figure as anything else, unlike some people with no excuse for their behaviour (*COUGH ARTHAS COUGH COUGH*).

Kommentar von TriniKrusader

In Warcraft 2, there was no nobility in the orcs. Orgrim wasn't a hero until he was retconned.

This is true- mostly. The orcs were bloodthirsty warmongerers but they did start the "turn around" in Warcraft 2, namely in the person of Ner'zhul. Ner'zhul was a complex character who DID want to tyrannise the humans but also refused to do so at the cost of his people's soul.

The Burning Legion promptly got rid of him.

Then he was made much more sympathetic through the novelisations. Which I don't disagree with, it was character development, not character derailment.

It was pretty much black and white - IIRC, it was stated that the orcs had consumed countless worlds before coming to Azeroth.

Also technically wrong - they hadn't actually left Draenor before then, but they were GOING to in Beyond the Dark Portal, so your point is as relevant as ever. It's important to note that the idea of the orcish bloodlust being stirred up by the Burning Legion was still a plot point - even if they were "evil" before the Legion found them in the older story, they weren't inclined to conquer anyone. They lived alongside the draenei for ages before wiping them out under Gul'dan.

It's also important to note that all the descriptions of orcish thought and behaviour in WC2 come from the humans (enemies), in-game narration (in the throes of bloodlust) or Gul'dan - everything in the manual concerning orcish lore is written in-character by Gul'dan - and he's the very definition of "unreliable narrator", being possibly the most horrendous psychopath in Warcraft history.

Still, you know what you're talking about.
Ugh, I've been having second thoughts about retiring lately :P

Kommentar von TriniKrusader

Orgrim left Gul´dan alive, but he did only because he needed him, he accapted him as an "important evil" (like Thrall accepts all horde warlocks)

Certainly. I think this issue is grey enough to allow some wiggle room. However it also isn't true that he stood against the Legion on all fronts, because he didn't. His reason for not doing so is open to interpretation.

... And yes, Night elves atually have reason to fight orcs, but draenei, humans, dwarves and gnomes don´t.

The orcs killed MOST of the draenei while under the Legion's control :| That isn't even a retcon, that's been in the manual since Warcraft 2. It's probably the worst crime the Old Horde ever committed. Having said that, it's just a footnote most of the time unless you're actively looking for info on draenei.
The humans... um, I think we covered that. Even Thrall understood that after his people literally invaded Azeroth for the sole purpose of conquering humanity, there would have to be a LOT of cooperation to erase the old hatred. Sadly, there wasn't enough and here we are.
The dwarves and gnomes were part of the Old Alliance, and thus fought against the Old Horde in Warcraft 2. So yeah, they've been traditionally on good terms with the humans for centuries.

And for killing cenarius - if im not mistaken, he still "lives" in emerald dream... And he was killed by Grom, who was under (un-direct, i think...) control of demons, so demons are responsible for killing him, not horde

I'm not saying the elven hatred is rational, just that it's understandable. Which it is, and things only worsened after Grom's death because as I understand it, most of Ashenvale has been chopped down.

And thanks for not taking my response personally. That's mature of you. My point is just that Blizz has worked pretty hard on making both factions have its share of heroes and villains, as well as political baggage, and I think they've succeeded.

Kommentar von Ghouls

Evil fountain.

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